Fluids

Fluids

Verification of concept requested

    • Jonscottharp
      Subscriber
      The basic concept is to cross-transfer the same mass in different forms (water and hydrogen & oxygen) between two different systems to produce a net gain output of electricity. Below is a 1-minute video of an animation. Please view and read the description with math equations. How would we verify this with an Ansys simulation?
    • YasserSelima
      Subscriber
      Please read about the first law of thermodynamics. I don't think Ansys can violate it ...n
    • Jonscottharp
      Subscriber
      Yes, I know the first law of thermodynamics well. The laws of thermodynamics govern energy conversions. But do they govern mass conversions? The electrolysis unit outputs to the fuel cell unit with a 20% loss as dictated by the laws of thermodynamics. The hydroelectric unit recovers the water byproduct from the fuel cell unit on a constant basis with an unchanging water-to-hydrogen conversion ratio of 9:1 and hydrogen-to-water conversion ratio of 1:9. That recovered mass of water is transferred through a penstock at a sufficient height and sent to a hydroelectric unit. It combines the hydroelectric output with the electrical output from the fuel cell unit. This part does not violate the laws of thermodynamics. This system has two electrical output ? one with partial recovery of energy, one with full efficiency. As for process control, the three separate units ? the electrolysis unit, fuel cell unit and hydroelectric unit do not provide feedback data because they are open systems as the laws of thermodynamics dictate. The process control is based on regulating the required input of each unit.nThe video shows you an engineered model of the Hydrological Cycle. It operates endlessly because of the recovery of mass (in this case water). nSo, my question to you is can Ansys simulate that? I have faith in you YasserSelima. Show me how Ansys can simulate the Hydrological Cycle and you will have answered my question.n
    • Rob
      Ansys Employee
      We can model fuel cells and the electro chemistry side of things (I didn't watch the whole video). As each section is independent I'd suggest reviewing the Twin Builder and ROM tools plus the various modules & options in Fluent.
    • Jonscottharp
      Subscriber
      Hi Rob, thanks for your answer. Yes, each section is independent. Great advice, though. I will check out Twin Builder and Fluent. As a retired guy, I am not very up-to-date on Ansys simulations. Thanks again!n
    • Rob
      Ansys Employee
      Looking at the system as an engineer I can see that energy enters & leaves the system based on the section of the cycle, and mass (overall) is conserved. I have reservations on the overall concept, but we're limited by export controls on here. n
    • Jonscottharp
      Subscriber
      Thanks for this. Concur with energy/mass balance cycle. There seem to be 3 issues: One, export controls, as you correctly pointed out. Second, is the balancing of gas/water velocities. And third, H2 purification & water recovery rates/energy consumption. nAs for export controls, I believe that the only way is to adjust input. All three nodes (electrolysis, reverse electrolysis and hydroelectric) would provide feed back data to a PID controller that could adjust input. For example, if a set rate is not being achieved with the electrolysis H2 output, a sensor would communicate to the controller to increase input. The electrolysis unit is designed in a configuration comprised of modules or cells, each with dedicated water lines and electric current. If the electrolysis unit has 100 cells, main operation would rely on perhaps 80 of them. But if the H2 output sensor detects a shortfall of even 1%, the controller would command 1 of the remaining 20 cells to compensate. nSimilar feedback loops would provide data showing output shortfalls for the fuel cell output of water. There would be twin verification points on water output ? flow rate from the condenser unit and the metrics on volume sensor/working weight within the upper reservoir. The feedback data would tell the controller to override the H2 feedback that says set point is OK, and that it needs more H2 so bring the appropriate number of electrolysis cells online.nVelocity rates can be controlled by pressure to slow down the gas velocity, or there 2D or 3D physical coiling could be employed. Overall, we want to keep energy consumption down.nAs for H2 purification & water recovery. For the former, centrifugal water/gas separators work quickly and consume little power as torque required for axial spin is generally minimal. As for the latter, there are micro mesh filters used in South Korea that allow for 100% separation of water and gas. It uses no energy. nRob, in your view, is this enough to simulate the system using Anysis? n
    • Rob
      Ansys Employee
      I actually meant export as in leaving the country: we're not allowed to say much on here as knowledge is an export and we (Ansys) counts as dual-use for US export controls. nIf each component is separate you're OK, and Fluent can handle it all with some extra coding in a few places if the existing models aren't quite there. If they're linked I don't think you gain anything, and actually lose energy (as Array says re the laws of thermodynamics). If storage is added into the system then it's potentially useful, but (big but) you'd need enough production to offset the storage costs. Modelling the system could use tools in Twin Builder (not part of Student) using data from many Fluent runs to figure all of that out. nWe see a designs with this problem every few years: the common issue is scale. The engineering principle is sound but the economics don't add up. We saw this in my BEng project, make a heat exchanger big enough to make the dP virtually zero so thermal efficiency is up, but we gained about 1% energy for a 200% price increase. n
    • Jonscottharp
      Subscriber
      Understand about the dual-use issue. Only say what is within your allowed parameters.nIt seems like your first answer contradicts the second answer. But let?s proceed onward.nWe completely expect to lose energy between the electrolysis and fuel cell link. This was known right from the start and the link was intentionally designed that way for this project. Our aim is to recover the water at the top of the unit and transfer it to a hydroelectric unit. In the start up phase, both the upper and lower reservoirs are filled to capacity with distilled water, and an in-system battery is charged to capacity. This is done with electricity from outside the system with the grid. nWith primary ignition, electricity from the grid is input to begin the water-to-hydrogen conversion process. The electrical input continues through the transfer process upwards and to the fuel cell unit and even as the fuel cell unit begins to output electricity, water and heat. Electric current input from the outside is continued until the moment when the hydroelectric unit starts outputting electricity.nThere will be an electrical output within the in-system transformer that exceeds the amount of electricity originally input from the grid. From that value in Mw, we use only the same value that was input at the start. nIf our hydroelectric head is less than 60 meters with a flow rate of 9,000 liters per second, material balance is recovered, but energy balance is not and the system breaks down. At 60 meters, the energy/mass balance is recovered, but there is no net gain. At a height of 60 meters with a flow rate of 9,000 liters per second, there is a slight gain. However, when the height is 200 to 300 to 400 to 500 meters the hydroelectric output is enormous. Keep in mind that the water-to-hydrogen conversion ratio is 9:1 and the water-to-hydrogen ratio is 1:9, meaning of course that like the Hydrological Cycle mass is conserved. We don?t care how much energy we lose transferring the water to the upper portion of the system. We just want it to output whatever amount of electricity it can, and give us back the water. And it does exactly that.nNumerous calculations have been conducted, even by the patent attorney who wrote up the specifications for the patent that was filed with the USPTO earlier this year. We have no intention of filing a useless patent application. The patent lawyer has impressive credentials: Master of Science and a PhD in jet engine design. He has successfully seen over 900 applications mature to a patent grant. And he would never risk his reputation with a process that doesn?t work.nAll we are asking for is a verification using the Ansys system. We have verified our results with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory using their new IBM Summit system. It matches their previous simulations of the natural Hydrological Cycle exactly. nYou are with Ansys. Can you arrange for us to do a verification? It might be challenging, but it would be very good PR for Ansys. n
    • Rob
      Ansys Employee
      Right, I'd missed the hydroelectric part. You can try the contact us option on ansys.com but we tend to support clients (including academic institutes) for projects rather than do them ourselves. n
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